Friday, June 18, 2010

Alternative Alshmertative

The Myth of Alternative Power
and Hydroelectric Storage

Every time I get into a debate about “alternative” energy I point out it can’t be used for baseline power because it can’t provide reliable power, and it can’t provide reliable power because you can’t store the electricity that it episodically generates.

Immediately, someone will say, “We can use hydraulic storage!”


Boned Jello

Hydraulic storage is basically a hydroelectric dam on a small or large scale, except instead of using water brought by a watershed, the water is pumped up behind the dam with pumps powered by the generator whose energy output you want to store. For example, you would have electric pumps powered by solar panels or wind turbines, the idea being that when the wind or cloud-free days produced a surplus of power (or you built in surplus capacity) the pumps would pump water from a lower reservoir uphill into a higher storage reservoir. The electricity would be stored as the potential energy in the elevated water. When you needed the power back, you would drain the water back downhill through turbines just like a hydroelectric damn.

Now, this certainly works and it has been done on a small scale. However, it will never, ever be a real-world, large-scale solution that can make alternative power work.

Why? Well, let’s just do some back-of-the-envelope calculations.[Chicago Boyz Shannon Love continued]

8 comments:

Jess said...

Let's see. Use the sun to pump water into a holding area and then allow the water to turn turbines when the sun doesn't shine? This will definitely work. We only need 800 square miles of solar panels to keep a relativily small city running....as long as we don't have a long cloudy spell.

What about the animals? They can live under the solar panels. What about the farmers? They can grow mushrooms instead of corn....as long as it doesn't affect government subsidized ethanol.

TimO said...

Everyone loves the idea of alternative energy.... until you bring forward someone with real engineering experience and show them the REAL numbers.

If you want to reduce the population of the Earth to a few million, give everyone several hundred square miles to live on and several million dollars worth of high-tech hardware it works great. Otherwise everyone will live in hippie huts like a 3rd-worlder.

Then they get really mad when they realize their utopian vision is just a fantasy.....

Anonymous said...

City of Denver has been using Hydro storage on a large scale for over 30 years. In California the Helms project was built to balance the proposed 5 Unit Diablo Canyon Nukes. As only 2 were built it now also balances all inputs into PG & E’s Grid.
Storage efficiency is better than batteries and everything but flywheels. You can’t compare to ideal only to real world systems to be accurate. Doc Smith Super-Capacitors would be great but they don’t yet exist. Saving part of ‘free’ power is always better than throwing it all away.

Anonymous said...

There is a large pumped storage facility here in Virginia, but it is in the mountains in a natural valley, easily dammed, and it's there because there is a large enought difference between required daytime peak capacity and surplus night time off-peak capacity to make it physically possible. It is also attractive because the Feds wouldn't allow building of more nuke power plants to meet that peak power demand. Florida and other heavily populated areas (where the power demand is) is flat as a pancake. Where will the dreamers put the ten mile diameter four hundred feet high concrete super donuts to store the generating water, the ten mile diameter two hundred foot high concrete donuts to store the outfall water and the eight hundred square mile solar farm to pump the water back up into the reservoir? I can hear the NIMBY now.
Lt. Col. Gen. Tailgunner dick

Anonymous said...

The TVA has been doing this near Chattanooga (Racoon Mountain) for years. Pump the water up hill at night when there is excess power and drain it back down during the day.

Anonymous said...

TVA has a pumped-storage project in southern Tennessee that would be considered "large scale." The author apparently did no research before writing....

pdwalker said...

Steven Den Beste had lots to say about alternative power and the problems associated with it. His last post on the subject talked about scaling problems

Anonymous said...

And astoundingly large mechanical losses each time the power is converted.

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